I too have wondered if all of these additions will make H3 unpredictable to the point of frustration. If the game allows the host to tweak things like the force of gravity then I can foresee someone discovering if you move a grav-lift here, set the force of gravity at this level, do this and this, then you create a stupidly frustrating experience for the opposing team (like a 5 second flag capture).

I remember being frustrated with Diesel's pessimistic outlook for H2 when it was close to being released, but now I can't help but have the same for H3. I have almost zero confidence that MS and Bungie can reproduce a Halo game as fun as H1. I really hope they prove me wrong.

I'm not really worried about gametypes. You can just not play in those games. I'm sure amongst the people we play, like H2, they'll be "Pro" or "MLG" gametypes.

As for being pessimistic about H3. I take the opposite route than you though. Instead of thinking, I have a pessimistic attitude. I say Bungie hasn't given us a reason to be optimistic.

You know it seems from the comments by Bungie. H3 gameplay will be similar to H2. The mistakes all of us see in the gameplay aren't being rectified. Just making dual-wielding less important, Bungie has said from the vidocs and other comments, has already been done with H2 using MLG/Pro gametypes.

Why should we be optimistic?

Not that "realism" was the point of Halo to begin with, but what the heck was realistic (or FUN for that matter) about a pistol you can zoom across the map with? Perhaps I feel this way b/c I didn't even play Halo for the first time until 3 years after it was released, and even then didn't play multiplayer (much less LAN it) until a few months before H2 came out.

H2 had some major flaws, all of which have been pointed out numerous times and don't need revisiting, but at least the pistol was a pistol, not an overpowered rifle. Like I said, realism was never the primary concern, but it should never be ignored entirely.

I think balance is key, and I for one am optimistic that Bungie will make this the most balanced Halo yet. The first two failed equally at being balanced, imo. I think most are partial to the "original" simply for the fact that it WAS the original. Side-by-side, not knowing which came out first, I doubt H1 would be so heavily favored, by THXers, nor the gaming community in general.

I'm going to repost something I put on the Shadowrun forums the other day. There's quite a lot more I want to add to this, but I'm afraid that if I start again I might not stop.

You don't want to get me started on Halo 3. When Bungie started to feed us our first morsels of information about Halo 3, I thought to myself, "Hey, it sounds like they are getting back on the right track. Maybe they can pull it back together and Halo 2 will be remembered forever as the Pandora Tomorrow of the Halo franchise."

However, the more I hear and see, the more I think that Bungie is going to drop the ball. Bungie's apparent ignorance when it comes to what makes there own game fun or not is astonishing. On numerous occasions they have sacrificed core gameplay elements in order to add in something broken that they think is "cool" or "looks neat." They made this really "cool" sword, but it was broken and didn't work well with fall damage. So instead of fixing the problem or cutting the sword, they sacrificed a core gameplay element -- fall damage. Then, like someone who uses PowerPoint for the first time and has to use every single transition at least once, they have to use this "cool" lunging melee code that they came up with for the sword -- for all the melees. Now we have this awkward, physics-defying melee attack that only works half the time. So then Bungie blesses us with new maps. One of these maps, Backwash is broken. They know it’s broken, but instead of fixing the framerate issues or cutting the "neat" fog, they sacrifice a core gameplay element -- grenades. Then they charge us for this broken map.

Halo 3 seems to be following this trend. All I ever hear in the updates is how awesome the water looks. Nothing about gameplay, and what I do hear about gameplay is disheartening. I see from the recent ViDoc that lunge melees are still in, fall damage is still out (which I really don't have an issue with that, it was just their reasoning behind removing it that annoyed me), bubble shields (uhhhh...no) and land mines (WTF land mines!? Are you serious Bungie?) are in. I can't stand the air lifts from Halo 2, and it looks like they are the chosen form of transportation now. The problem with the air lifts is that you, the player, have no control over your character once you step in it, and you will always land in a very predictable spot. Bungie says there wasn't any inherent danger in going through a teleporter, except of course the part where you have no idea what is on the other side and there is often a grenade/rocket/sniper bullet waiting for you when you exit.

In the ViDoc they talk about High Ground's original design. Originally, they thought it would be a good idea to give the defenders a wall with FOUR turrets, and on top of that, make them AI turrets. So on top of all the, you know human opponents, you have to deal with FOUR AI TURRETS!! How could that have ever been a good idea!?

I had better go ahead and stop myself before I get too riled up and write several pages. By the way, I want to make it clear that Halo 2 was a great game and Halo 3 will almost certainly be a great game, I just don't think it is Halo. The more I see, the more I think Bungie stumbled across a complete accident with Halo 1 and instead of embracing it, they have done everything they can to make each iteration a completely different game from Halo 1 (and then called us liars on the forums if we said all we wanted was a prettied up, fixed version of Halo 1 with some new features for Halo 2 -- wait, isn't that pretty much the standard for sequels? I guess Bungie had to revolutionize that as well as eliminating the 5 second wait for "Checking downloadable content" before you signed into Live).

The biggest thing to me that makes Halo 1 greater than Halo 2 is this: Whenever I play Halo 1, the game is filled with those 30 second periods of intense gameplay, where your adrenaline is pumping and your heart is pounding. I have never had an experience like that while playing Halo 2, never.

My 2 cents,

I think the point made about sacrificing game play for innovation is a good one.

The problem I see is a fundamental one. There has been a continual shift in the basic experience

In Halo 1, skill ruled every facet of game play. A skilled player confronting 2 or even 3 un-skilled players, stood a good chance of walking away, even if everyone was armed in the same manner. The team dynamics only became important if players on the teams were equally balanced in terms of skill.

That is shifting to almost the complete opposite. Team tactics rule all. In H2 a skilled oponent running into 2 or 3 noobs stood a good chance of getting mowed down. Individual skill didn't play into the equation unless the team dynamics were evenly balanced.

Now, with moveable obstacles, mines, shields, etc. It sounds like it's going to turn into a chess game with guns. It doesn't matter how good you are. It matters how well you've drilled tactic with the other people on your team.

It also sounds like an enviroment that will foster more crap like super jumps and glitching. In H1 if you did something stupid and fell, you killed yourself. Halo2's no-fall-damage paradigm invits people to try to do crap to exploit the physics. I bet to play H3 you're going to end up having to practice exploits to stay competitive...a big turn-off for me.

Guess the point is moot since I don't own a 360.

- Brick

I'm not sure I understand this. Would you like the H1 pistol better if it just had a different model in-game? Or is it the game balance you take issue with?

Anyways I've beaten the whole "balance" argument with stick way to many times. But, I'll spout my perceived wisdom again.

You can really look at the whole balance things two ways. One is the way I think you see it. The pistol, in too many various circumstances, is dominate compared to the other weapons. This is true, and you could conclude the weapon isn't balance because of this.

However, I've felt that is way to narrow a look. I look at it another way. Provided the pistol is very difficult to master and fun to use. In this case, the pistol could bring balance by leveling the other weapon dominate weapons through skill. The sniper from distance and various short-range weapons up close(I could list a dozen other ways). In this way, all the other weapons fit as compliments to the pistol. None are dominate. Also you'll always have a chance against a dominate weapon, because you spawn with the pistol. Your chance is based on your skill.

The problem is, people who joined the H1 party late or never learned to begin with. Didn't like the whole pistol thing, because of the large barrier to entry. The stories like: "I have a rocket and you killed me with a pistol. What BS!". Should be rephrased: "I jumped across broken bridge in chillout and got killed." It wasn't just shooting or aiming. The pistol forced strategy upon everyone.

Here's the best I think we can hope for from Bungie for Halo 3:

They realize that they've got a cash cow and they have to baby and nurture that cow as much as they can to squeeze as much money from it's penny filled udders.

It's all about how many people they can get into the Halo gaming experience. They're goal is not to cater to us 'pros', but to cater to us 'pros' AND the other 80% of the people who will play H3. So what do the other 80% of clueless people want? Features. Bungie has worked itself into the situation of not being able to cater to the crowd that has made them popular. It's sad really.

The best I think we can hope for is if they created Halo 3 with the intent of maximizing the experience for each separate group of people by allowing the community features (ie. matchmaking gametypes) to separate these types of people. Will it happen?.. Who knows. I doubt it because say for instance someone wants to be called the greatest Halo 3 player in the world. Well, they're going to have to master all of the features, not just one gametype in order to do that.

But you know what? It all doesn't matter because we can still play Halo 1.

Prediction: Bungie will ship HALO 1 online multiplayer hidden inside of HALO 3 much like Quake II came bundled inside of Quake IV. HALO 1 will be activated by completing some task during the campaign mode. Thoughts?

Balanced gameplay isn't fun for me. The more balanced a first person shooter becomes, the less of a shooter it becomes. It becomes more of a real-time strategy game. Adding these deployable technologies to the game seems to indicate a necessity to coordinate with the rest of your team and use strategy. This, IMO, means that individual skill will be less important in H3. I also think that is makes for a less comfortable gaming experience as almost everyone plays with more RANDOM people on Live than they do acquaintances. Social games are fun when everyone knows everyone. I don’t think they are fun when playing with random people.

In H1, a person could play with random people and still do well while everyone else had fun. I like shooters that allow an individual to dominate. If you can build a game that allows one player to dominate, you can then build a team of dominating players and have a highly competitive game. The Pistol and Frag grenades in HALO 1 allowed a player to dominate.

A weapon like the H1 pistol is the balancer. The pistol can take out the person with the RL or even a Warthog.

In H2, you needed a weapon like the H1 pistol to take out the Energy Sword user. Heck, the Warthog was crazy-hard to kill. The H1 pistol takes a Warthog driver out in a few shots. It takes several clips with a Battle Rifle to take a Warthog driver out (GG destructible vehicles).

Anyone else noticing that Bungie has released a lot of screenshots and movies of close-combat action?

Ahh, the fabled Halo 1.5. It would be nice for them to include it on the H3 disc. On the other hand, considering Halo 2 filled its ENTIRE DVD, I believe the same will happen with its successor. I don't see how they can fit a couple gigs of H1 multiplayer onto the disc after Halo 3.

What I'd really like is an XBL enabled H1 with prettier textures, more polygons, and more maps. You'd think with H2 and H3 Bungie could pull that off. They're 0 for 1. We'll see this fall.

I have very little faith that bungie will get it right this time. I think it is going to be Halo 2 all over again. I really didn't think it would before, but the more "vidocs" I am seeing, the more I get the feeling this game may be even worse than Halo 2. If that is possible.

They keep getting caught up in what they can add to the gameplay, like vehicles, guns... man cannons (I mean come on). Why add anything? Why not just improve the graphics and concentrate on a killer story line. Like Midnight said, Halo 1 with better graphics and XBL would be awesome.

I was not always a H2 hater. I used to think that everyone was just too picky and that they would complain about it even if it was a Halo 1 copy. I have come to realize, however, that everyone was right. I just don't enjoy playing Halo 2 anymore. It's just not fun. Sure it was fun for a while... but it got old pretty fast. I'm sure it will be fun playing on the new maps, though (a couple of days maybe). Halo 2 just doesn't have the lasting appeal that Halo 1 has had and always will have. Halo 2 is not a classic game. ...I am afraid Halo 3 won't be either.

jay says that Blood Gulch was 4MB compressed...

On a side note here, I would like to mention that Quake IV sucks...

not exactly in agreement on that one.

Okay, but it was mediocre, at best. Oh, look, ammo caches! That surely doesn't mean a boss encounter or some tremendous fire-fight is about to occur. Oh, man, the main route has been cut off! Wait, let's use this conveniently located vent to go by an alternate way! How original. I'm not saying some good shooters don't have their share of these, but come on, this is something everybody has seen from the first and second Quake. Could you be anymore stock? Also, the visuals are "meh," but for some reason the game is an absolute graphics whore--I would like my frame rate above single-digits consistently, thank you.

My point is, it wasn't bad per se, just disappointing. I was expecting more from such an anticipated title.

Oh, man, the main route has been cut off! Wait, let's use this conveniently located vent to go by an alternate way!

CORTANA: Warning...blast doors closing! We have to use the ship's maintenance access ways. Follow the navpoint, it will lead you to an opening.

lol

That's why I said, "I'm not saying some good shooters don't have their share of these..." Besides the fact that Halo came out over four years before Quake 4 was released.

Halo wasn't meant to be original, anyway. After all, one of the reasons it did so well was because it took some proven game designs and solid game play to make one respectable, outstanding shooter.

There's nothing wrong with clichés, just as long as they're done right.

I was not always a H2 hater, but I am realizing more and more how much my Bungie fanboyism has been clouding my objectivity. I never got tired of Halo 1-I still love to run AotCR with a friend. We all can agree Halo 2 was not better than Halo 1. I have not played Halo 2 in months, and you know what? I don't miss it. The Halo 2 campaign, as great as it was, just was not as fun as the Halo 1 campaign. I'm beginning to think Halo 1 was just Bungie getting lucky and not having time to overthink things because they had 6 months to make a great launch title. They struck out hardcore with Halo 2-I hate getting online and having to combat stupid game exploits, Double shotting, and 9 year old MLG "pros." It's just not fun for me anymore- I honestly prefer playing Wii Tennis. One statement in the most recent ViDoc worried me greatly- they talked as though Halo 2 was their standard, not Halo 1. If they can't best Halo 2 im throwing Halo 3 in the trash. My biggest fear about Halo 3 is all this new stuff is just razzle-dazzle stuff to throw us off from the fact it's all about protecting the Cash Cow and not actually fixing the core elements of the game, balancing them right, and not nerfballing the weapons. I think very little of Halo 3 is going to fix what was wrong with Halo 2. If there is no online co-op i will be immensely dissapointed. I think the Bungie team needs to stop with all this aesthetic stuff and focus on making the core gameplay fun, get rid of anything that doesn't fit or detracts from the gameplay, or can be easily exploited. I hope they are working on making the story great, too. I see so many things right now that I think will be exploitable for cheaters. Good luck to Bungie but my faith in them right now is not strong.

You typed the words right out of my fingers.

That's copyright infringement!

What if I change the words around a little?

If you said something like, "You expressed the symbols right out of my keyboard" or something, I'm fine with that.

Here's my revised statement:

You typed the words right from my fingers!

Downloadable content??? You don't need the GIG's of data for multiplayer without the campaign, just look at some of the game demos we can download right now.

That's just one (poor) example. I still don't think Bungie considers Halo 1.5 a priority, so I don't think we'll see it. Ever.

That said, I would be ecstatic if it would happen.

That's synonymous with "You took the words right from my mouth," so that's fine.

As far as I'm concerned until I play it i have no feelings about it either way. It could end up being the best game I've ever played, or God-forbid, it might end up being the worst game I've ever played. if it does suck I'll probably buy it anyways just to say I own it. You know, whatever.

Did it? I disagree. I think it DISCOURAGED strategy. Zooming across the map in Hang 'em High with a pistol makes it entirely too difficult to cross the bridge and pickup the sniper rifle. What is strategic if the only weapon players went for is the rocket?

H2, even with BR spawn, STILL forces strategy, whereas H1, all you really had to master is aiming w/ the pistol (leading, headshots, etc.), hence it WAS "just shooting and aiming." It's all a matter of preference, and I prefer strategy mixed in with skill, rather than pure skill.

Having said what I have, Halo CE is still a great game. And I still enjoy playing it immensely. I'm simply attempting to present a different perspective. And perhaps, had I the time/inclination to have mastered the pistol in H1, I would feel differently. And on a side-note, H1 campaign is SO much better than H2's campaign! That's what has me the most worried about H3....

You're probably right, but does that mean Halo takes less strategy than the second game?